1 in 3 Americans have a criminal record that is probably limiting their participation in your workforce and community. Any arrest, even if it didn’t lead to conviction, constitutes a record and lifelong barrier to opportunity, even for those who long ago served their time. Sheena Meade, Executive Director of the Clean Slate Initiative, is working to change that with bipartisan policy that automatically clears records for people who stay crime free. In this episode, learn how you can help grant second chances and unearth new talent right under your nose.
What is the Clean Slate Initiative?
The Clean Slate Initiative is a national organization. It is a bipartisan movement ensuring that a criminal record isn’t a lifetime sentence. We do this by working with state and national partners to build coalitions that pass laws that automate and expand the expungement process so that people can have a shot at redemption, access to meaningful opportunities, access to employment and housing and to provide for themselves and their families.
Can you talk about the impact of minor criminal records in the U.S.?
There’s no such thing as a minor record because just the smallest record, whether it’s an arrest or a conviction, creates a barrier for people. And in America there’s 70 to 100 million people, one in three Americans, who have some type of legal record. And as we know, especially in the community, the audience that’s listening, that nine in 10 employers use background checks for hiring. Four out of five landlords use background checks to screen potential tenants, and three out of five colleges use background checks as a part of their application process. I would say that there’s no such thing as a minor record when you have one in three Americans who are trying to get jobs, housing and further their education and that a record would serve as a barrier to them. This issue, like I said, impacts a lot of people across the country.
Do you get any pushback on Clean Slate legislation?
I think the misconception is that people who have a record are folks who have maybe some of the harder offenses that may come to mind, but it’s often super minor, nonviolent offenses. We all want to be forgiven, we all want a shot at redemption and we want to extend that to our family and friends and people that sit next to us at work and within our circles. And I think people will want that for communities as well. And so we have not seen a lot of pushback, I would say. Sometimes people think that it may be a strain on the courts to automate or to government agencies. But actually what it does, it reduces strain on the court system. It saves taxpayers money and it opens doors for millions of hardworking people seeking jobs.
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Sheena Meade: Nine in 10 employers use background checks for hiring. Four out of five landlords use background checks to screen potential tenants and three out of five colleges use background checks as a part of their application process. I would say that there’s no such thing as a minor record when you have one in three Americans that are trying to get jobs, housing and further their education and that a record would serve as a barrier to them. This issue impacts a lot of people across the country.
Amanda Ellis: That’s the voice of Sheena Meade sharing about the Clean Slate Initiative. They’re working to automate and expand the expungement process in America for people who have long been crime free. One in three Americans have some sort of criminal record and Clean Slate’s goal is to broaden their access to opportunity. That works simultaneously, benefits communities, and especially employers, in a tight labor market. I’m Amanda Ellis and you’re listening to Inside America’s Best Cities, a podcast for chamber, economic development and talent attraction professionals on how your community can be a better place to live, work, and play. To learn more about this podcast, visit livabilitymedia.com. And with that, let’s jump in. Sheena, thank you so much for joining us on Inside America’s Best Cities today. We’re really excited to have you.
Sheena Meade: Thank you, Amanda. I’m excited to be here and appreciate the invitation.
Amanda Ellis: So, of course, our audience on Inside America’s Best Cities is people who work for chambers, people in the economic development industry, people who work on thinking about how to attract and retain talent in communities. And I think you’re going to have a ton of great things for them to be thinking about today. So for some of our listeners who might not be familiar, can you start by sharing a little bit about the Clean Slate Initiative, which you of course lead, and what that means?
Sheena Meade: Yes, thanks. So the Clean Slate Initiative is a national organization. It is a bipartisan movement ensuring that a record isn’t in a lifetime sentence. And how we do that is working with state and national partners and build coalitions that pass laws that automate and expand the expungement process so that people can have a shot of redemption, access to meaningful opportunities, access to employment and housing and to provide for themselves and their families. The Clean Slate Initiative actually started out of Pennsylvania. Shout out to Sharon Dietrich in Pennsylvania who started this work out of Legal Services and saw that Clean Slate was an economic and workforce issue. In 2018, 2019, they passed a law that so far has cleared over 36 million records just in Pennsylvania alone.
Amanda Ellis: That’s amazing. Can you talk about the impact of minor criminal records in the US as it stands right now, just as kind of some background of why this is so important?
Sheena Meade: Yes. Well, Amanda, that’s a great question. And let me just say there’s no such thing as a minor record because just the smallest record, whether it’s an arrest or a conviction, can actually create a barrier for people. And in America there’s 70 to a 100 million people, one in three Americans, who actually have some type of legal record. And as we know, especially in the community, the audience that’s listening, that nine in 10 employers use background checks for hiring. Four out of five landlords use background checks to screen potential tenants, and three out of five colleges use background checks as a part of their application process. I would say that there’s no such thing as a minor record when you have one in three Americans that are trying to get jobs, housing and further their education and that a record would serve as a barrier to them. This issue, like I said, impacts a lot of people across the country.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that’s a major obstacle no matter what the exact issue or thing that happened was. That’s a different way of framing it. And I guess I knew a lot of things involved background checks, but that really is absolutely everything that you would need to do to build life, to get through life. So this is typically something that would happen at the state level, right?
Sheena Meade: Yes, typically at the state level we focus on passing legislation, but we do have a federal bill, which we could talk about a little bit later. But most states, Amanda, already have a process to clear records after a certain amount of time. And just to give the audience a little bit of visibility of what that looks like, most states have a petition based process where if you’ve been arrested or convicted of an offense you’re able to, after a certain amount of time being crime free, no new offenses, able to go petition to get your record cleared, expunged or sealed. And that could be very cumbersome. And every state has their own process on what that looks like. Some states you’re only allowed to get one offense cleared. Some states you may have to wait 15 years, 10 years. Some states you have to pay four to $500 per case. And just for people to understand, you can have an arrest that did not lead to a conviction and maybe the case got dropped but yet that still was on your record and maybe you want it to get cleared. And so what Clean Slate does at the state level is the Clean Slate laws update and streamline that process. So we use technology to automate it so that people don’t have to petition and records are cleared when they’re eligible. So this removes the barriers to people getting their second chance and takes that burden off the person. So just like your credit, I tell people so folks can understand clearly, they say after seven years or if you paid something off your credit, you expect it to come off. That is an easier way for me to explain to people who may not be familiar with record clearing process.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, that’s a great comparison. Yeah, it’s not an active process you have to participate in. It’s just once a certain amount of time has passed that’s not something people can find out about you anymore.
Sheena Meade: Or they shouldn’t serve as a barrier. Let me give you an example. Like my own story, which I passed a bad check years ago as a single mom and the check got returned. It was under a hundred dollars. And because it got returned to the bank, they sent it to the local DA, district attorney’s office. Two months later I had two cops showing up at my door and I got arrested in front of my children. And this happened back in 2003. And years later, you’re not thinking about a check that you might have passed or paid off and getting to pop back up. But guess what? Whether I go volunteer at my child’s school, whether I’m applying to higher education, that question is going to come up, have I ever been arrested or convicted? And this is something to serve as a barrier where people just look at the application and then may throw it away or deny you based off of that premises.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, so in most states, unless they have already passed some type of Clean Slate legislation, there’s no automated process for things to fall off your record unless you go through the steps you were talking about.
Sheena Meade: Unless… Yes, most states don’t have a Clean Slate automation law other than the states that we’ve passed it in already. We’ve passed it in seven states.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, so that was going to be my next question. Who are some states that you all have been able to work with that have made changes?
Sheena Meade: Well, it’s been exciting, Amanda. To date, seven states have passed laws that meet Clean Slate criteria for record clearance. Pennsylvania, as I spoke about earlier, passed a law in 2018 that so far has cleared over 36 million records and at least over a million and a half people have been impacted. Utah came second in 2019. In 2020, Michigan has passed a law. Then Connecticut, Delaware, and then this year alone, Oklahoma and Colorado passed a law.
Amanda Ellis: So that’s a little bit of every region of the country too.
Sheena Meade: Every region. And there’s many more states that we’re working in now that are working on legislation and working with partners to pass Clean Slate laws. And there’s been a lot of momentum and a lot of states trying to figure out how they could automate the process and remove that barrier. Because people want to get back to work and they’re realizing that this is a barrier for folks getting into the workforce and employers are recognizing that as well.
Amanda Ellis: Exactly. And to talk a little bit more about that, so you’ve talked a bit already about barriers to employment and background checking. You just brought up workforce again. Could you expound on that a little bit more in terms of how Clean Slate legislation can impact the overall workforce and of course in a time right now where things are especially snug?
Sheena Meade: Yes, I appreciate you bringing this up because I think folks don’t realize all the barriers that comes with not being able to have maybe a clean slate. There are certain positions that may call for you to have a certain license and as simple as just being a barber. We’ve seen people who have actually been formerly incarcerated. While they was incarcerated for an amount of time they may have taken up the skill or trade of barber while they was incarcerated, and that was a job that they may have done inside of prison. Or cosmetology, I met some women in Oklahoma that learned how to be a cosmetologist and came home to start a business because they knew that they would have the barrier of trying to get a job because of their record. And what we found out, in many states there are restrictions that you cannot even get a barber or cosmetology license easily because of a record or even to wash hair. I think I heard in Oklahoma to even get a license to wash hair. And so there are partners across the states that are working to change those laws, but these are some of the restrictions that we see. So there are 44,000 legal or regulatory restrictions that limit access to employment, occupational licensing, housing and other opportunities. When I say regulatory restrictions, meaning when we talk about access to employment, that could be a license to barber, a license to nurse, to be a CNA. It could be to get your trucking license. It could be to get endorsements on your license too, being able to drive a truck. There’s so many different legal and regulatory restrictions. And a lot of these laws are very dated and old laws that we’re approaching. And so some of these things come up. As we’re passing Clean Slate laws in states we started hearing the stories around these other regulatory restrictions and we try to address those as well with our partners.
Amanda Ellis: Yes. So thinking about our listeners, again, people in the chamber, economic development, talent attraction space, how can people in those fields support this kind of work? Thinking about the unique access they tend to have to a lot of different people in the community, business leaders, political leaders, all of the above. How can they support this?
Sheena Meade: Well, I think there are many ways that folks can support. I think this is a big step, just being able to be on this podcast to talk about it and to talk to the business community around the issue. Because we have a large pool of under tapped, underutilized workforce that is ready to go back to work that can be tapped into and that have the skill set and are able to be retained and great employees, but because of these barriers that I think sometimes employers don’t know that is in between them and employee that is there. And so businesses and organizations like the Chamber of Commerce are vital partners in Clean Slate efforts. They’ve been a big partner in Utah and Colorado. And if listeners are in states with a Clean Slate coalition, they can join and help pass Clean Slate policies. I recommend they reach out to the Responsible Business Initiative for Justice, rbij.org. They’ve been a great partner that’s been working with employers around second chance hiring and fair chance hiring. And I encourage them to just let the coalition be a part of the conversation, and really talk about why it’s important to be able to bring people back into the workforce.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, what are some states with the coalition that you mentioned?
Sheena Meade: So we have Colorado is probably one of the states that have the most robust business coalition happening in Colorado. Right now there’s coalitions in Texas, Michigan, Delaware. In Delaware we saw JP Morgan was really heavily involved. And so there are multiple states that folks are engaged with. But if there is an absence of business community, this is where your listeners could join in, they could tap in. And maybe there are businesses that are already aligned in values and already hiring people who may have a record or say that, “Hey, we’re a second chance employer and we believe that people should have a fair chance at redemption in being able to be a part of the workforce.” Just having that voice around advocacy as they’re advocating with the legislators on other issues and just being a voice in the community goes a long way for this movement.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, it’s so important. And a lot of chambers do play a big role in policy and advocacy and advocating for policy that’s going to support their business community. This falls squarely into that category. So it’s great to hear some ways they can engage there.
Sheena Meade: And like you said, they’re people from the community. So a lot of the chambers also have a lot of the small, or not even small, but the mom and pop companies that are part of the chamber. And they’re the people that are employing the people right from their communities, from their churches, from the neighborhood. And a lot of these people, when you think about it, when one in three people in this country have some type of record, we’re talking about our neighbors, our friends, and our family, right? And so they want the same things that everybody else wants, a safe place to live, a fair chance at making their lives better and meaningful opportunities to provide for themselves and their families and the business community could help with that.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, so everything that you’ve said has made so much sense to me. Do you get pushback on this? And if so, what does that look like? Is there any pushback our listeners might face with advocating for this? What are some misconceptions around this work you could maybe dispel?
Sheena Meade: Well, I think the first misconception is us and them. And it’s not. It goes back to what I just said. We’re talking about one in three people. There’s two of us on this line right now. I’m one person. I’m a person who is directly impacted. And these are people in our neighborhoods. These are our children’s parents. These are people in our congregations and our faith communities. And I think the misconception is that people who have a record are folks who have maybe some of the most harder offenses that may come to mind. But these are people who have got offenses for, I just gave the story myself, bad check, driving on suspended license, things that some of us get caught up in every day. And sometimes it’s people who just have the money and means to not have a record and that’s why they don’t have it. So I think the misconception is that people don’t believe that everybody deserves a second chance. We all want to be forgiven, we all want a shot at redemption and we want to extend that to our family and friends and people that sit next to us at work and within our circles. And I think people will want that for our community as well. And so we have not seen a lot of pushback, I would say, from community and folks. Sometimes where the pushback may come back is where people think that it may be a strain on the courts to automate or to government agencies. But actually what it does, it reduces strain on the court system. It saves taxpayers money and it opens doors for millions of hardworking people seeking jobs. We’ve seen this actually in the pandemic. I started two years ago in the pandemic and we thought maybe this was actually probably something that was impossible to do to move this legislation. But we saw the need because of the courts being shut down, because we saw that the workforce was low. It was a great opportunity saying, “Look, we’re able to continue to be able to automate the process, get people back to work. Give people the second chance at making their lives better.” And so I think now folks are really picking up on that momentum.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, and you already talked about this a little bit. But in your states that have already passed this legislation, what are some positive results that they’ve seen? I know you already threw out some numbers of just the sheer number of people that were able to probably make some big steps forward in life as a result. But anything else you can speak to there?
Sheena Meade: Yeah, so just going back. In Pennsylvania, since 2018 over 40 million cases have automatically been sealed. Over 1.2 million people have a record sealed. 1.2 million people, that’s a lot of people. In Utah, the law went in effect earlier this year and cases are being expunged on a rolling basis. Nearly 500,000 people from Utah have been identified for automatic record clearance so far. Since we’ve started working in 2019, 2 million people are on the pathway to receive full record clearance. 2.3 million people to have at least one conviction on non conviction clearance. And we’re on the pathway to 7.3 million convictions, non conviction cases, to be cleared. And that’s a lot of people that impacts. And it’s just not about them, Amanda. It’s about their families and their children and their communities, how that’s going to have an impact on the full community.
Amanda Ellis: Yes, huge impact. Huge positive impact. Huge positive impact on the workforce too. And especially timing wise with Covid and coming out of Covid, it’s definitely something that is needed. You threw out the phrasing sealed a couple of times. What exactly does that mean?
Sheena Meade: Yeah, so sealed and cleared… And I’m not a lawyer, Amanda, and so I would say that these terms could be used differently depending where you’re at and who is using it and so that’s why I like to just say record clearance.
Amanda Ellis: Gotcha.
Sheena Meade: So sealed means where maybe employers may not have access to see that you have an arrest on your record or a conviction. But that does not mean that law enforcement does not have access to it. It’s sealed from more of the public and the folks who may run background checks as far as employers, schools and having a record sealed. And then when you think about expungement, that’s kind of like throwing it away, right? It’s thrown away. No one can’t see it.
Amanda Ellis: Yes, that makes sense. So a little bit more granular question that I was wondering about. So since this doesn’t apply in all states, how would this work with people moving around from state to state, just out of curiosity? So does it depend on what state the incident happened in or where you’re living? Does that make sense?
Sheena Meade: It does make sense. And that’s something we’re always trying to chip away at and trying to figure out how we could better serve our community and the work that we’re supporting. Because the first thing… Let me go back, Amanda. What we’re trying to address is being able to automate the record clearance process by using technology. And as you know, every state is not up on technology. It’s funny. One of my coworkers said some of these states are still chiseling records and files on a tablet in their back rooms. And so of course you could be in Pennsylvania and maybe something is cleared and, I don’t know, maybe you may have an offense in another state that the date is not up to date or they’re not talking to across states. And so that gets into more of the policy pieces around interstate stuff and data sharing. And so we’re still trying to identify how that works and doing some research around it. But really state by state. We’re focusing state by state how we’re able to least help bring some relief in the state where the person is, where they live at.
Amanda Ellis: So do you feel like it would be accurate to say that if a state does not have Clean Slate legislation in place, if they were able to establish that, they would pretty much automatically increase their workforce and worker pool pretty hugely just by doing that?
Sheena Meade: I would say yes. So let me tell you, they did some research in Michigan and one year after record clearance the research showed that 11% were more likely to be employed and earn 22% higher wages. And I think it will increase the worker pool. Just off the stigma that it just takes off a person and the confidence to be able to say, “I’m able to go and even apply for a job. I don’t have to worry about the rejection based off my record and not the skillset that I know I have,” that increases the likelihood of people just even applying when they don’t feel like there’s already a barrier set up for them. So yes, I believe it will help the workforce and engage folks.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, and that’s a great point that we really haven’t hit on. From a personal standpoint, it’s embarrassing.
Sheena Meade: Yeah, it’s a stigma. People are walking around, you’re already, “I’ve got over that thing,” right?
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, or you didn’t really do anything wrong in the bigger picture of things. And yeah, it’s embarrassing. It’s not something anyone would want other people to know. Especially from an employment standpoint, even if you still got the job, it’s just…
Sheena Meade: Yeah, it’s like reliving it.
Amanda Ellis: You feel like you’re not starting with a clean slate, hence your name.
Sheena Meade: Yeah, definitely. I could give you my own example. When I went to apply to go to college to start finishing my degree, and this is probably eight years after the whole check thing, maybe even more than eight years passed the check thing, and when I was doing the application, because I didn’t lie, it said, “Have you ever been arrested?” I’m like, “Well, yeah, most folks… One out three people going to have some type of experience.” And so I checked the box. But then it was like, “Okay, now that you’ve checked the box, tell me what happened. Where’s the deposition? You need to pull the records.” And it’s like, “Why am I reliving this? This is something that got dropped or dismissed or I’ve already taken care of it.” And so it is, it’s like a stigma. It’s like, “Where is this coming from and why do I have to go back before… It’s like I’m going back before a judge or a bench to reprove that I’m worthy of coming to the school.”
Amanda Ellis: And having to prove that over and over. You would feel like having to prove you’re worthy over and over for different things in a way that other people aren’t having to do.
Sheena Meade: Yeah, even the stigma when I was going to volunteer at my son’s school to go on a SeaWorld trip. And I understand they need to put policies in a place to ensure that the children are safe and I’m all in agreement with that. But also looking at how the process is though. When I went to the website to go sign up to be a volunteer and it asked you a question. And you’re talking to a computer. You’re not talking to a person where you go to explain and give context, but it’s just clicking a button which automatically, with technology, it is probably going to reject. And it’s like, “Yes, it was a check. But this has nothing to do with me volunteering.” And at that one time I kind of just retracted from even volunteering because I didn’t want to bring stigma to my child. I didn’t know what rabbit hole this was going to take me down. And so I just kind of stepped back from that engagement.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, and companies looking for workers or organizations looking for engagement from people, they can’t afford to have people feeling like if they have to check yes on a box that their application is going to get thrown out immediately. We need engagement from people and companies need employees and it’s defeating the purpose. So you talked a little bit earlier, Sheena, about your personal connection to this work. Do you want to share anything else about that and what brought you here? From reading up on your background a little bit before this call it looks like you have helped a lot of people in a lot of different ways over the course of your career. But can you elaborate on that a bit, what brought you here?
Sheena Meade: Yeah, so what brought me to the Clean Slate Initiative is I had worked on a campaign in Florida that worked on restoring voting rights for people with felony convictions. Because prior to passing the ballot initiative in Florida, you were banned for life from voting if you had a felony conviction. And just so your audience understands, felony is a word that seems very heavy and is used in so many different ways in media and terms and culture. But you could get a felony for driving on a suspended license in Florida. You could get a felony for catching a lobster that is not the right size and keeping it or even a fish, wildlife. There’s so many crazy wildlife laws.
Amanda Ellis: It’s ridiculous, yeah.
Sheena Meade: And a lot of these laws came really from the Jim Crow era and it stayed. And Florida was one of three states in the country that banned you for life. So can you imagine driving on a suspended license because you didn’t have the money to get your license renewed and you had to still go to work and you got a felony offense and now you can never vote again, ever, unless you petition to go before the clemency court? And so I worked on that initiative with Florida Rights Restoration Coalition. And one thing about that campaign, it wasn’t about politics or partisan politics, it was about people and redemption and being able to just have a second chance and being able to have your voice heard. And that campaign ran with so much support from people from all walks of life, economic status, political backgrounds. And I was able to see what is possible and what hope looked like and wanted to bring that into this work. So when this opportunity came up for Clean Slate, I thought about this as the next level of what I was able to see happen. And so I was really excited about coming to Clean Slate Initiative because I know how to put people above politics and that’s what we have to do to really pass these laws, a fair chance at making people lives better.
Amanda Ellis: Yeah, that’s amazing. And I feel like the work you’re doing is so important in helping so many people across the country.
Sheena Meade: I think what I would add is that this is an economic and workforce issue and it intersects with many things that we all care about. It intersects with health, childcare, school, education, racial justice. The biggest thing is it is an economic workforce issue. Workforce is saying that they need more employees and more workforce. I think about just going through the airport and I saw that a local chain was shut down because they had a shortage and going to a local business store and I was trying to get business cards printed in another state and they couldn’t open the store because there wasn’t enough workers. And just to say to the audience that there are people who are ready to go to work who have the skill set that’s an untapped workforce base that’s out there. But there are barriers that are keeping them from coming to your place of work to be that great employee that you need. And some of these things are things that they could just lift their voice up and just utilize their platform as a business. Because business have so much power in our communities and also within our state legislators. I believe that this is a space that is safe enough for them to say that, “We believe in second chances and we believe that people should be able to go to work.” And so just be able to increase awareness and support from business.
Amanda Ellis: Yes. Well, Sheena, that is a perfect note to take us toward wrapping up here. I do always end our interviews on the podcast with a fun question. So since we are, of course, Inside America’s Best Cities, where are you based? I know Florida, but what city?
Sheena Meade: So I live in Windermere, which most folks probably don’t know where Windermere is. So I would say Orlando. So I am doing this podcast from Orlando, Florida.
Amanda Ellis: Okay. So this is interesting because Orlando is a more touristy city than a lot of places I get to ask this about. But the wrap up question is always, what’s one bucket list item that visitors to your city should be sure to do? So I’d love to hear a creative take on that because obviously when everyone thinks of Orlando, we think of Disney World and SeaWorld and all of that good stuff.
Sheena Meade: Gosh, there’s so much to offer, Amanda, here in Orlando, and I’m still trying to find time that I could be a tourist in my own city.
Amanda Ellis: I know. It’s so easy to forget to do that.
Sheena Meade: Yeah, I get jealous when folks come here and they’re like, “I’m going to this thing.” I’m like, “I didn’t know this thing existed here.”
Amanda Ellis: “I want go do that. I want to go there.”
Sheena Meade: “I want to go there.” So I would say something that’s fun, everyone goes to the big theme parks and it could be so exhausting and hot.
Amanda Ellis: And expensive.
Sheena Meade: And expensive. And you need energy. And with kids, it could be disastrous for adults. I’m telling you, it is a long day. So I would tell you one thing that is really fun… There’s many things, but I’ll give you one. So in Orlando, in CityWalk, and I cannot think of the name right now. But they have this live karaoke in CityWalk where you have a live band that backs you up during karaoke. And it is probably the most fun, inexpensive, fun thing to do. It’s free to walk down CityWalk. Free to go to this spot, get on stage and be a star.
Amanda Ellis: What a blast. Okay, so they play the music for you instead of you picking a track?
Sheena Meade: Well, they play the music for you and you have a band. Okay, it’s Rising Star. Rising Star at CityWalk. It’s a karaoke club. You talk, you get back up singers and a band.
Amanda Ellis: Oh my gosh, that is hilarious. Do you have a go to karaoke song? Are you one to get on stage and do it or more watching?
Sheena Meade: It depends on if spirits are involved or not…
Amanda Ellis: I hear you on that.
Sheena Meade: I would say I’m more of rapping because I know I can’t hold a tune all the time or I get too excited. So I would do a song maybe like Biggie Smalls. I’ll do that with my husband. So yeah.
Amanda Ellis: That’s hilarious.
Sheena Meade: Notorious B.I.G.
Amanda Ellis: Well, Sheena, thank you so much. That was such valuable info that you gave our listeners. Really fun wrap up. You definitely pulled something else out about the Orlando area that I did not know. So thank you so much for taking some time.
Sheena Meade: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure being here. Thank you.
Amanda Ellis: Thanks for listening to the Livability podcast, where we take you Inside America’s Best Cities. At Livability, we highlight the unsung awesomeness of small and mid-sized cities across the country. We also partner with communities to reach their target companies and potential residents through digital content and print magazine programs. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, rate and review this show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can learn more about us at Livabilitymedia.com. Have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email me at [email protected]. Until next time, from Livability, I’m Amanda Ellis, sharing the stories of America’s most promising places.
