DCI’s Patience Fairbrother joins us with insights for your talent strategies and the high points of DCI’s annual Talent Wars job and location research, including implications for small and mid-sized cities and local upskilling programs.
What are some of the high points of your relocation research findings this year?
What we like to do overall is look at what we call the path to purchase for relocating talent. So, what does it look like all the way from that initial trigger of someone deciding to move to their final decision? And this year when we looked at what that primary trigger is, quality of life continues to be the primary driving force behind moves. But for the first time since the start of the pandemic, we’re seeing that jobs are once again driving relocation.
Another unique thing we looked at was we specifically asked about tech layoffs and found that 65% of tech workers said they’re more likely to move out of the state in which they currently live in light of the tech layoff, opening up opportunities for communities seeking tech talent.
And finally, when it comes to where people get their information and how they form impressions of locations, internet research is firmly in the lead and has been for the last few years. It used to be firsthand experience and word of mouth from friends and family that were those driving factors behind perception. But internet research is starting to take over and continues to be in that number one spot.
Did your research on cost of living and housing make you think about any specific places that have more appeal for people now or in the coming years?
We are seeing more opportunity opening up for our small and midsize cities. What they have is typically lower cost of living, which is the top location factor, and it’s easier to get involved. We’re seeing a lot more emphasis on the chance to do meaningful work, the chance to connect with like-minded peers and make an impact, and that’s a lot easier in a smaller city. We’ve definitely been seeing the South has been a centerpiece for a lot of recent moves and experts think the heartland is next for expansion, cities like Tulsa. But for right now, I think it’s going to be those cities that are seeing a lot of corporate investment, that have a lot of job opportunity, but still tread that line of not having too high of a cost of living.
Are remote workers still a priority group for talent attraction efforts at this point?
I think we know that some form of remote or hybrid work is here to stay; there’s been a lot of talk of recession and is the power going to shift back to the employers. But I think that really the power is going to stay with the employees for the next few years and employers need to seriously think about the fact that people do value that hybrid and remote option.
As far as communities making remote workers a priority, it needs to be part of the equation. But any community overly hanging their hat on that audience is not necessarily looking at the full picture. I think it’s important to look at all different types of skillsets and ultimately cater to your employers, but especially if you have good broadband, a lower cost of living, you’re kind of losing out if you’re not directly marketing to that audience. So, I’d say yes, definitely continue to make it a priority, but make sure that no matter what, you’re still marketing the jobs that you have in the region. Because whether you have an in-person job or you work remotely, at some point in the future, you might want to change your career or change your job. And so, knowing that you have other opportunities in your industry in that location is going to be important.
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Patience [00:00:04]: What mid-sized and smaller cities have is typically lower cost of living, which is the top location factor, and it’s easier to get involved. We’re seeing a lot more emphasis on the chance to do meaningful work, the chance to connect with like-minded peers, and make an impact that’s a lot easier in a smaller city.
Amanda [00:00:25] That’s the voice of Patience Fairbrother. Patience is the Vice President of Talent Attraction at Development Counsellors International, or as most of us know it – DCI. She works with places to attract the workforce of the future through research and marketing campaigns. Today, Patience and I talk about the high points of some recent relocation research and the implications for your talent strategies, like how your upskilling efforts can be a recruiting tool, and relocation incentive programs may not be as impactful as you think. I’m Amanda Ellis, and you’re listening to Inside America’s Best Cities, a podcast for Chamber, economic development, and talent attraction professionals. You can learn more about this podcast at LivabilityMedia.com, and with that, let’s jump in…
Amanda [00:01:09]: Thank you so much Patience for joining us today on Inside America’s Best Cities. It’s great to have you and we’re super excited to talk about some of the Talent Wars research you all have done.
Patience [00:01:18]: Thank you so much for having me.
Amanda [00:01:20]: So, you all do this piece every year, I think, looking at similar topics around relocation, what’s happening in the space, but then you update some of it year to year depending on what’s going on in the bigger picture. Is that pretty accurate?
Patience [00:01:33]: Exactly, yes. We come out with it every year since 2017. So, we’re now in the 7th edition. And like you said, sometimes we make tweaks depending on what’s going on in the broader talent landscape to hone in on specific topics. But for the most part, we like to stay consistent so we can look at themes and how things have changed over the years.
Amanda [00:01:50]: Yeah, so we do some relocation research at Livability too, but we do ours a little bit differently. We tend to cover specific topics in shorter pieces and so that sounds like a lot.
Patience [00:02:00]: It’s definitely a lot of data, but it’s always so much fun to weed through it the first time the results start to come through the numbers. It’s really exciting to see how things have shifted.
Amanda [00:02:10]: Talk us through, what are some of the high points of the findings this year?
Patience [00:02:13]: So, I’ll give you a couple. What we like to do overall is look at what we call the path to purchase for relocating talent. So, what does it look like all the way from that initial trigger of someone deciding to move to their final decision? And this year when we looked at what that primary trigger is, quality of life continues to be the primary driving force behind moves. But for the first time since the start of the Pandemic, we’re seeing that jobs are once again driving relocation. Another unique thing we looked at was we specifically asked about the tech layoffs and how that’s impacting things for tech workers, and we found that 65% of tech workers said they’re more likely to move out of the state in which they currently live in light of the tech layoff. So that obviously opens up opportunities for communities seeking tech talent. And finally, when it comes to where people get their information and how they form impressions of locations, internet research is really firmly in the lead and has been for the last few years. It really used to be firsthand experience and word of mouth from friends and family that were those driving factors behind perception. But internet research is starting to take over and continues to be in that number one spot.
Amanda [00:03:24]: You said you’ve done this for seven years, which is a while. Thinking about all of that time and the different findings, is there anything that hasn’t really changed that much over that time or vice versa? What’s completely different from when you started doing this?
Patience [00:03:41]: One consistent I’d say is that money matters across the board. So, cost of living has consistently been the top location factor and salary the top job factor. So, every year we’ve done the survey that’s been consistent. Similarly, when it comes to the most important location factors, it’s really the practical things like cost of living, housing cost, housing availability, health care that people find most important. Despite what we hear about amenities being the most important thing behind attracting people, it really is those practical things and can I actually afford to live here and can I find a home? As far as changes, the biggest flip that we’ve seen that is now actually beginning to reverse itself is what’s actually driving relocation. So pre-pandemic, it was all about the job. People were finding a job first and then they were evaluating the location. With the rise of remote and hybrid work, we’re seeing that it’s really more about livability and quality of life and that’s really what’s driving relocation. As I just mentioned, this year we’re starting to see jobs coming back as a driving force in the picture. But that’s been an interesting flip, especially during the pandemic.
Amanda [00:04:49]: Yeah, that is really interesting. We’re actually working on a study to come out later this year, taking a closer look at what is the tie now between where people are at and what they do for their livelihood. So just asking, do you live there because of work at this point?
Patience [00:05:04]: Yeah, definitely. I like to ask everywhere I go, just anecdotally people, how do you end up here? And for the most part, it’s the job, my spouse or partner’s job, or friends and family. But increasingly people are just deciding to up and move because they can.
Amanda [00:05:18]: Yeah, and along the lines of some of what you were sharing too about what hasn’t changed. So, we’ve seen some similar consistent factors, which is always nice to see that reflected in other research too, but about costs, proximity to family being a big part of the decision-making process for people. I always joke like do they want to be far away or close to the family? But usually closer. Climate is a big one that we see come up. How much living space can you get for your money? With what you were saying about costs and housing, thinking about specific places when you were looking at the data from this year and putting all this together, did it make you think about any specific places that you think are going to be places we hear more about or that have more appeal for people now or in the coming years?
Patience [00:06:06]: Yeah, for sure. And this certainly isn’t new, but I think we are seeing more opportunity opening up for our small and midsize cities. We’ve heard a lot about the death of Megacities and whether we’re going to see the end of New York and Silicon Valley and things like that. And that’s simply not true. There’s always going to be value in those larger, know we’re social creatures. It makes sense that we congregate in these large spaces with jobs and culture and things like that. But what mid-sized and smaller cities have is typically lower cost of living, which is the top location factor, and it’s easier to get involved. We’re seeing a lot more emphasis on the chance to do meaningful work, the chance to connect with like-minded peers and make an impact that’s a lot easier in a smaller city. We’ve definitely been seeing the south has been a centerpiece for a lot of the recent, you know, the Carolinas, Florida, Texas, Tennessee being the places where we’re seeing a lot of think, you know, Richard Florida says he thinks the heartland is next for expansion cities like Tulsa. But for right now, I think it’s going to be those cities that are seeing a lot of corporate investment, that have a lot of job opportunity, but still tread that line of not having a high or too high of a cost of living that it’s not possible to afford to live there.
Amanda [00:07:20]: Agreed. I feel like those in-between places are really having their moment right now. Another thing I wanted to call out, over 70% of your respondents said they’d be willing to think about relocating to a new place, a new region or a state to access certain training to further their career, upgrade their career prospects, that sort of thing. Do you feel like that has implications for communities thinking about their Upskilling programs? I feel like there’s kind of this dual thought process of thinking about workforce. So prepping people for jobs, you can think about Upskilling, people already in your community, recruiting, talent, attraction, getting people to move in. So, I feel like that’s something that folks put effort into both and sometimes you’re just like, which one should I be focused on? But for this question, I think on the Upskilling side of that, it is oriented towards people already where you are. Do you think that stat indicates that maybe expanding that thought process could be good and using your Upskilling efforts as a recruiting tool?
Patience [00:08:18]: Absolutely. Yeah, you’re completely right that I think traditionally the focus for Upskilling has been on the local or regional population and trying to get them tapped into workforce development. But our research shows that there is an appetite for people to actually move for training, especially for free training. But even if they needed to pay out of pocket themselves, we’re seeing that there is that appetite. So, I think the communities that get out in front of that and really proactively promote those opportunities are going to win in the long run. The one consistent, regardless of whether someone is local or external, is that there is really a lack of awareness of what opportunities are out there. And I think a lot of that comes down to your technical schools and workforce programs and things like that. They don’t always have the marketing budget that some other entities have and they might not have the best online user experience and their information might be hard to find. So, I think the communities that are really trying to harness what they already have and package it in a nice way and make it really exciting for people to think about what if I did shift my career path or upskilled and how much more money could I actually be making and really painting that picture for them.
Amanda [00:09:23]: Yeah, and maybe being able to tie into like maybe you could make more money in our place than wherever you’re currently.
Patience [00:09:29]: Exactly.
Amanda [00:09:31]: Yeah, that’s going to be interesting. So, thinking about remote workers, this is something that I have been thinking about a lot, so I’m curious to get your perspective on it. So, something we’ve been doing with our research is delving more into specific groups of people, maybe specific career fields. What do those people want? Is it different than a general survey of what people want? So, we’ve looked at skilled workers, manufacturing workers, those sorts of career fields. Are they looking for something different? We’re in the process of doing something on healthcare workers. Just thinking about these big groups that communities think about specifically. You mentioned tech workers that you all have looked into that, but remote workers, are they or should they still be a priority group in your opinion, for talent attraction efforts at this point? I know a lot of people have gone back to the office, maybe not as many as there were. What are your thoughts on that?
Patience [00:10:26]: Yeah, definitely. And it’s been such an interesting thing to watch evolve over the last few years. I think we know that some form of remote or hybrid work is here to stay and I do think there’s been a lot of talk of recession and is the power going to shift back to the employers. But I think that really the power is going to stay with the employees for the next few years and that employers need to seriously think about the fact that people do value that hybrid and remote option. But as far as communities making remote workers a priority, I definitely think that it needs to be part of the equation. I think any communities that overly kind of hanging their hat on that audience is not necessarily looking at the full picture. I think it’s important to look at all different types of skill sets and ultimately cater to your employers, but especially if you have good broadband, a lower cost of living, you’re kind of losing out if you’re not directly marketing to that audience. So, I’d say yes, definitely continue to make it a priority, but make sure that no matter what, you’re still marketing the jobs that you have in the region. Because whether you have a job or you work remote, at some point in the future, you might want to change your career or change your job. And so, knowing that you have other opportunities in your industry in that location is going to be important.
Amanda [00:11:37]: Yeah, I think that’s a perfect answer. And also, if you’re working for a local employer, I do think that ties you to a place in a little bit different way. I mean, not that you’re necessarily going to stay forever and work for that employer forever, but if you’re a remote worker who’s already mobile, maybe you’re coming and going along, just not having the staying power as much. Which doesn’t mean it’s not good to have those people, but exactly. Just a different way to look at it. So, I saw it mentioned in the current report that you all may be doing something delving more into the European talent attraction landscape sometime soon-ish. Can you share anything else about that?
Patience [00:12:12]: Yes, so very exciting. DCI recently entered into a joint venture with a company called OCO Global, and we formed C Studios, which is now our sister agency based in Europe, in the Netherlands. And so, what we decided to do is essentially take a talent wars style approach. So, replicate the survey that we do here nationally in the US, in Europe, honing in on a few specific markets. So, we’ll survey working-age talent in Europe to understand what their decision-making process looks like and really is there appetite for cross-border relocation. And one thing that we did include in the US report this year was a question about openness to relocation internationally. And 39% of our audience said that they were open to relocating internationally. So, it’ll be interesting to see what the European audience says about this. That report will be coming out in October.
Amanda [00:13:04]: Yeah, that’ll be super interesting. It’s also just fun to think about how different that is in that part of the world. Because here the US is so big. I feel like most of our talent attraction thought processes are around, bringing people from other states, but they might have another country right next door. So different thought process.
Patience [00:13:23]: Exactly.
Amanda [00:13:24]: How do you all get your data? Like, we partner with a group called Ipsos that helps with surveying a group representative of the US population. How do you all collect your info?
Patience [00:13:35]: Yeah, so kind of similar. We work with a panel provider to get our respondents. And so we target every year more than 1000 working age people across all industries. And the one requirement that we’ve implemented in the last few years is that they have to have relocated within the last two years. So, we want to be surveying people who aren’t just thinking in theory what they might find important, but they’re actually looking back on their most recent relocation decision and giving us that information. So, the panel provider helps us make sure that we have a qualified set of respondents who fit the characteristics that we’re going after.
Amanda [00:14:10]: Gotcha, yeah. It can be hard to target such a specific group. So, I was curious how you all were going about that last question before my fun closer question. Thinking about talent, attraction overall, your expertise, all the different groups you work with and are thinking about, and your pulse on that ongoing work. What are some common initiatives or common priorities or programs that you think are not as effective as people think they are?
Patience [00:14:41]: I love this question. A few different things come to mind, but I think the biggest one I’ll focus on is incentive programs. So, we’ve seen the rise of these programs, and I think the communities that really got out in front of it and offered these either pre-pandemic or at the height of the pandemic really saw great returns. Not only in actually getting people to relocate but also in getting a lot of great PR and publicity for their efforts that have kind of halo effects. So those are great, but I feel like these days those programs are kind of a dime a dozen. Like every city across the country or every community seems to have some sort of a program like this. And I think there are diminishing returns at a certain point where it’s not as special, maybe. So, what we found in our survey last year in 2022, we asked about, were you offered an incentive, and did you accept it? And then we drilled down a little bit further and what we found is of those who were offered an incentive program, 64% said that they would have relocated there anyway. So, I think the message there is maybe you’re speeding up the process for somebody, maybe you’re incentivizing them a little bit to make that move, but for the most part, you’re going to be reaching people who probably would have moved to your location anyway.
Amanda [00:15:51]: Yeah, I see what you’re saying, and I also definitely think those are a quality over quantity idea where it’s not like they’re bringing in huge groups of people.
Patience [00:16:00]: I love the ones that focus on things that aren’t necessarily monetary, like how can we get people tapped into the community once we’re here? Can we give them co-working space access or free outdoor passes or equipment or there’s lots of cool creative ideas you can do. And I’m all for making somebody’s move easier. I just think as a pure attraction tactic, it’s not maybe as effective as we might think.
Amanda [00:16:21]: That makes sense. And the flip side of that question, what’s an underrated priority initiative tactic? That maybe something someone did that you didn’t think would work. And it was awesome.
Patience [00:16:34]: What came to mind for me was focusing on friends and family. Not that a lot of programs aren’t doing this necessarily. I just don’t think everyone is capitalizing on this the way that they could be. So that’s the number two trigger that we found the last few years in our study is people move to be closer to family and friends. So really what that tells us is that your greatest assets and ambassadors are already in your backyard. And while it’s great, obviously, to have an external marketing program that’s getting your location on people’s radars, it’s even more important to make sure you’re engaging with your local residents and making them champions for this effort and getting them to call their sister or their child or whoever that they’re interested in having moved to the location. So, I’ve seen a few great examples of kind of like scrappy, lower-budget campaigns that take advantage of this that have been super successful. The other thing that came to mind on that is just how important it is to involve stakeholders in these kinds of campaigns and how if you lose sight of that, it can be really detrimental to the effort overall. The kind of cautionary tale I always point to is Rhode Island came out with this campaign. They had hired Milton Glaser, who did the I Heart New York logo, and it was like a $5 million campaign. And they went out with this big splashy news state slogan and logo and all of this stuff, and then their residents just absolutely trashed it on social media, and it became this laughingstock. And I think essentially the lesson there is you have to involve your own residents and your own locals and make sure it feels authentic to them. I mean, I think any place, regardless of size, is going to face some kind of backlash locally, just anti-growth sentiment. And so, I think that’s why it’s so important to know. This is why this is important. And even a state like Florida that is seeing record numbers of in-migration is launching a talent campaign. I just worked with them on this, and a huge part of the effort was meeting with literally hundreds of education partners, employers, real estate agents, people all throughout the state to make sure they understood why that employers are still struggling to fill jobs here. And so, we need to take a proactive approach to this. And getting them on board was key to the effort. Otherwise, it would have failed.
Amanda [00:18:49]: Yeah. Is this their wonderFL site?
Patience [00:18:51]: Yes, exactly.
Amanda [00:18:53]: It’s probably one of my favorites out there right now. It looks really nice.
Patience [00:18:56]: That’s awesome. Thank you.
Amanda [00:18:57]: All right, so we always wrap up patients with a fun question, which is about where you’re based now. So, you’re in NYC, right?
Patience [00:19:04]: I am, yes. I’m based in Brooklyn.
Amanda [00:19:06]: We always ask what’s like an off-the-beaten-path bucket list thing that someone visiting should do, someone visiting where you live?
Patience [00:19:16]: Oh, I love that question. I mean, I just touched on the fact that I live in Brooklyn, and I think that’s really going to be the crux of my answer is everyone comes to New York City to see Manhattan, and that’s fantastic. But Brooklyn is so amazing, too. And I think the different pockets of neighborhoods are so diverse and varied and the different types of food you can find, and it’s a little bit more eclectic, more neighborhood y, things like that. So, I always make a big push for people to come to Brooklyn, and I have a lot of restaurant recommendations for anybody who’s looking to come and check out Brooklyn.
Amanda [00:19:45]: We have a lot of guests offer lists of restaurants. I need to collect all of these at some point.
Patience [00:19:49]: You should compile them because I think that’s a very valuable resource.
Amanda [00:19:54]: Well, thank you so much, Patience. That was really interesting. And we might have to have you back soon to talk about the next round of international research.
Patience [00:20:03]: Absolutely. That’d be so much fun. And yeah, thank you for having me.
Amanda [00:20:11]: Thanks for listening to the Livability podcast, where we take you inside America’s best cities. At Livability, we highlight the unsung awesomeness of small and mid-sized cities across the country. We also partner with communities to reach their target companies and potential residents through digital content and print magazine programs. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow, rate, and review this show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also learn more about us at livabilitymedia.com, have an idea for an upcoming episode? Email me at [email protected]. Until next time, from Livability, I’m Amanda Ellis, sharing the stories of America’s most promising places.
